Gun Sense
From Mr. Remington in the comment section:
- Everybody wants the M4's but complain about the POWER test requirements. I have taken the test, failed it due to injury and being sick with a cold. Finally I was able to pass and the M4 is back with me in my squad. The rule is stupid, leaving me unable to carry the carbine till I was able to test again. I am 250 lbs and can hold onto my rifle. Is J-Weiss telling me Officers 1/2 my weight who can run 4 laps around the academy are better qualified and have better weapon retention strength?
Why isn't the shotgun made more available? It is lighter and is better suited for most urban situations. The 00 Buck round is very effective and wont travel as far if you let a stray one go. The shotgun ammo is CHEAPER as well as the shotgun itself. As of now, there is no POWER test for that, but once qualified, an Officer cannot sign one out for basic patrol. Lets push for the authorization to carry the 12 Gauges and to be able to purchase/carry our own personal shotguns. Even the training is less time consuming. One day at the range, compared to the week for the M4. The whole program is more economical for the Department if you care about that. Officers can be trained in 1/5th the time and for a fraction of the cost. PUT THE RIGHT WEAPONS IN OUR HANDS!!!!
People want the National Guard? Arm the Police and the few Officers out on the street will be able to better match up with the thugs that are trying to take over and run this City (although not on my Watch)!
Again, an argument we've been making since the Carbine Program started, but worth repeating before summer hits.
Labels: department issues
posted by SCC at 12:01 AM
71 Comments:
Have you seen the training matrix this summer for the shotgun? 2 spots a district, lotta good it will do us.
A shotgun is a good weapon untill the offender has a AK-47. Then you are f$&@$d! The M-4 spanks the shotgun.
Shotgun is not as accurate a an M-4. This makes the M-4 better for an urban environment.
I would love to buy and carry my own 12 gauge shotgun for work.
There is nothing like cornering your prey...then racking the slide with that unmistakable gates of hell sound that immediately gets the attention of the most smug offender and brings peace and tranquility
OR... there is a very very loud noise, then peace and tranquility.
Stay safe, the 12 gauge shotgun, crude, but highly effective.
Re: Shotguns:
but once qualified, an Officer cannot sign one out for basic patrol.
I Do.
The personal shotgun program is doa. The sgt that wanted it left the range.
Picked up a nice Mossberg 590sp from bud's last year for the low price $359 put a nice smile on my face.
Great HD shotgun keep a 50rd bandolier loaded w 00bk & Slugs.
It has a real tight pattern at 30ft.
"That ain't your daddy's shotgun Pvt. Cowboy!"
As I stated before, if I see someone pointing at me with a M4. my ass is stopping dead in my tracks. The same would go for a shotgun.
The power test for this weapon is just another dickhead daley move to hamstring us!
Some say they prefer a shotgun and it is an effective tool in some circumstances. Those circumstances are facing one assailant who is in close range. The manual action of a shotgun makes it slow to rechamber. Those who do not maintain their skills with it will revert back to the training they have had with semiautomatic weapons and forget to extract the spent shell/chamber a fresh round while under stress. That is a serious drawback when considering multiple assailants. It also has a limited magazine capacity when compared to any pistol save some single stack .45s. Again, consider the limited magazine capacity in relation to multiple assailants. Its effective range is very short. After 15 yards its spread begins in earnest, making accurate fire from that yardage and beyond extremely difficult. One must also look at its lack of power to penetrate body armor and see yet another glaring drawback to the shotgun. Contrary to popular belief 00 buckshot can and does overpenetrate inside the human body and can also overpenetrate in common home construction materials. That being said a direct hit with most, or all, of the pellets from 00 buck is absolutely devastating. One stop shopping there to be sure. That is really the redeeming quality of the 12 ga shotgun. When you consider all of the factors listed above you see that it is not a very effective tool if you are facing multiple assailants at distance greater than 15 yards. In particular when compared with the AR15. The shotgun, just like the revolver, was a great tool in its day. That day is done.
I have taken the rifle class and while I do not agree with the power test being mandatory I think that some sort of physical fitness level is needed to get the most out of the program. The two days at the range we alternated between shooting and loading magazines while we ate snacks and drank water on the fly. A lot of coppers in the class complained of being sore from standing and shooting the whole time. A female in my class, who was not noticeably out of shape, was visibly shaking from lifting the rifle for so long. She shot well and passed, had a lot of heart. Most of us, as the police, are not used to being on our feet and active for hours on end. Maybe the power test doesnt reflect that. Maybe something like the old agility test. I hate to say this as Im against the power test for rifle carry but I think some (maybe many) coppers wouldnt be able to finish the class if some sort of physical fitness standard wasnt mandatory.
Regarding the M4, jfled has added way too many hoops to jump through just to own one legally. Not that is matters, there are never any classes open. He forces you, if you do buy one, to not register it.
We won't get the POWER test for the rifle qual rescinded until JFled is gone and a real Chicago Police Officer is back at the helm.
M4s go through walls better be on target .12 only 100 yards has a great psyops affect too when u rack it Watch when CPD M4 kills an innocent citz Cop will get sued personnaly for punitive damages
ditto...
Turn in Ur M4s when they become illegal in State of IL besides u bought an expensive rifle that the city should have paid for and issued just how stupid are we NYPD Atlas and Herc teams use dept issued weapons
My partner an I are carbine certified. It is a great tool to have! However, I would agree that the shotgun makes more sense. As I understand it, the GO's on the shot gun are so fu#@ed' because it contradicts itself over and over and has been around through so many superintendents. Anyways, why not one shot gun and one carbine in every car!
shotgun is a step backwards. no range. harder to shoot. less capacity etc. shotguns are good for birds. the m4 and .556 round was developed to kill people. and it does not overpenetrate. I dont care for the power test but its there; so either get in shape or dont carry the rifle. quit whinning
Gun sense? It's more like gun NON-sense. Wasn't the POWER TEST requirement just some political tool to force the officers into some kind of shape for the Olympics that never came to Chicago. Wasn't the POWER TEST requirement the END-all. Many officers went for a days training at the range and were proficient at handling the shotgun. It was usually the officers that did qualify for these shotguns were on teams that did search warrants and took them out only for the time of the search warrant. We know from experience that these officers that took the course did so without a POWER TEST. Then the M4 came along and the idea of a POWER TEST came along with it. The guys that took the shotgun course knew it was all bullshit that you had to take the POWER TEST to handle a M4. Some of the shotgun qualified guys were burly guys hunting animals on their own time using various guns to hunt. I know, because I hunted with them and believe me, maybe these guys couldn't run the mile and a half in the designated time at their age now, but they did do it at a time of the police hiring phase years ago. And these guys were crack shots. And during that time they accumulated years of experience that given the bullshit political climate, is just wasted as much as taking a POWER TEST. Now, I don't care if they give me a free M4 or a free shotgun without even having to take a qualifying test. They can shove it where the sun don't shine. I just depend on my .45, like I used to for the past twenty years. I don't need any other bullshit. And one last thing, you would think that the FOP would have filed some kind of grievance based on discrimination. Talk about a union that sucks, FOP sucks.
I stated these very facts posted to JFed at his Wright College Townhall meeting!!! They just have no interest in the shotgun anymore. When I requalified for shotgun there were rumors by the instructor who claimed to be pushing for 870 Remington carry much like the M4 but with no Power test. That went no where also!! The reality is the badguys are arming themselves with no power test needed and will have the upper hand to kill as they please in this city because Shortshanks does not want good cops or good citizens defending the American way of LIFE.
I've been taking out a shotgun every day since the racks have been put in the cars, but the racks should be in the front of the car so it's accessible! I also believe that the shotgun is a more effective weapon, not to mention that racking the slide is a great deterrent.
this order was written and in the process of being drafted for approval - then the mastermind of it got dumped/moved/promoted or something like that so the passion fizzled. . .
rumors were that the order was to include the remington 870 18"barrel 4round mag tube (same one we have in the W/C office) along with select others (possibly the mossberg/binelli pump guns; did not hear of any semi-auto versions).
ideas behind the order were to have a similar qualification system as the carbine (YES POWER TEST INCLUDEDE) and the shotty would be slug only. believe it or not, but a 00buck will overpenetrate walls and still remain deadly - dept was not willing to take that liability.
further plans rumored ===
once shotty's carbines were approved and personally owned - our dept issue 870's would be exchanged with less than lethal variant including bags/batons/rubber - possibly the taser 12ga round. . . .
all that is scrapped as of right now but some people have the draft order. I hope it gets approved and I hope the Binelli SuperNova Tactical is on it!!! I'd love to pick one of those up. No rust because it's a polymer coated steel receiver and it's only 400ish. MUCH lighter than an 870 of mossberg.
The shot gun would be a great tool to have however the city should let us carry shot guns that are have a 13inch barrel it is easier to handle it tight situations and also you could carry it more safely inside the vehicle.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sawed-off_shotgun
Hey, what's the matter with verbal judo? Just speak in tongues and tie them in knots! They'll be so busy saying "Huh?" they won't be able to shoot anyone!
Officer Remington. I agree with much of whats argued with the rifles. Guys and Gals from the military are certainly more qualified for carrying the rifle than most. The Carbine Program offers more than just "load mag here, shoot at this part of target..." The shotgun is also an excellent weapon and in some cases, a better option than the carbine. LAPD has a rule that if you put on more than 10 pounds in a year, you take unpaid leave until you're back on track. Most of us could stand to be a little lighter...and healthier. I have work related injuries that will never allow me to be the track star that I once thought I was, but I take the power test as a personal challenge and an accomplishment. Irregardless, perhaps a street tactics class, incorporating shotgun and rifle wouldn't be a bad idea, allowing officers to be better equipped for situations as needed.
How about the option to carry either WITHOUT a power test. Besides, the g.d.'s, stones, and the rest of the gangs don't take one. And they seem to hitting their targets quite often.
When and where do the bad guys have their POWER test befor they shoot theyre rifles?
JFLed made that rule before he put 20lbs on.
who cares what good are they secured in the trunk anyway,
From an 80 man PD in Massachusetts: We deploy the new MP 15 which is essentially an M4. It is outfit with vertical fore grips and can accommodate an aim point.
There was no PT test or anything like that. Before you can deploy it on patrol you must meet a stringent during course (high stress, yelling, with some physical activity involved).
I know it is easier for us do to us being 80 cop, but most cops can become street proficient with a few hundred rounds.
Why do they make you run laps around a track?
There are auto-loading shotguns you know……
a lot of you guys are talking about tools.
a screwdriver is not just a screwdriver , there are phillips heads and flat heads for example
they are designed for different situations.
guns are tools
different guns do different things
choose the tool to do the job as required
both shotgun and m-4 are needed in a city of this size.
Jody, Please if you care at all please gives us the tools to take back this city and protect those who cannot protect themselves. I am asking you man to man for the sake of my kids give your officers M-4's, shot guns, training or whatever they need. I spent along time in military and have seen guys and gals get injured and their PT falls short, but they can shoot, perform tactics and so forth all with out running some timed run. If you care at all you will consider this.
Semper FI
USMC
Anonymous said...
.. Anyways, why not one shot gun and one carbine in every car!
4/29/2010 01:33:00 AM
Seiser says "one shot gun in one hand and one carbine in the other"
Guns are scary! I'd rather have a CAPS handbook in a CEASEFIRE carrying satchel.
Rifled Deer Slug.
'Nuff Said.
i have a mossberg 590 for home protection, its a great weapon.i'm a taxpayer who supports the police,thankyou!
18 year vet who many moons ago was a proud member of the 75th Ranger Battalion who now because of an IOD, cannot run a mile and a half in the prescribed time. I know for a fact that if given an M4 I would be able to handle the weapon with ease. Its a bullshit requirement, Its a tool that can help me make it home to my kids if ever threatened by some an Offender who is trying to keep me from my loved ones. Rescind that order and if I may, my 2 cents to the argument would be if you are prior Military, we should be given consideration if we cant pass the run.
P.S.
Free Cozzi
I hate you J_Fled
the USMC has and still use the mossberg 590,if its good for them it must not be out of date[good for home defense at least]
Every gun has it's place. The shotgun is better in some situations than the M4 and the M4 is better in other situations. There is no one gun that is the best for every situation. Anyone who knows about different weapons knows this. That's why every officer on the street should be trained with and equipped with some type of rifle and shotgun. Let the situation dictate what weapon should be used instead of bringing an M4 or shotgun to a situation where it may not be the most effective. But this is the CPD and that makes too much sense, would cost too much to train officers, cost too much to set-up the cars with locking racks, and would upset the ministers that the police were so well armed.
I shot the M4 and was trained to use it and certified to use it by the United States Marine Corps....you would think that would be enough...but no they want me to run around the academy 4 times...Ic an do it, but I say if you were in the military and trained to use it by the best, then that should be enough.
Here's my .02
Why not have a "long gun" qualification course which provides training for both the M4 and the shotgun. Logistically a single, two to three day course would be easier accomplished and once qualified, it could be up to the individual officer to choose his/her weapon.
I do believe that the shotgun should be a semi-auto because in a bad situation, you may need to squeeze out more than one round in rapid succession and playing with a pump action may not cut it.
Both weapons have their advantages......the M4 for obvious reasons, including going toe to toe with a banger carrying an AK or SKS, the potential terrorists threat, or an L.A. bank robber scenario. The shotgun is very versatile with different rounds (including bean bags) to adapt to a particular situation. It may also, in certain situations, be more suited to in-house/urban conflicts.
As far as the power test goes, I do think having to pass the test specifically for the right to carry an effective weapon is wrong, however I do think that we, as an ENTIRE department, need to have some annual testing to stay in REASONABLE shape, no exceptions. I don't mean running marathons but you should be able to at least SEE your feet. I think most here would agree that a uniform shirt should not be offered in sizes exceeding XXXX. I know of the obvious contactual issues here but I think a little common sense and good health would do us a all a little good.
Anyone know what percentage of police shootings occur at which distances and with how many offenders ?
now that we have a workout room in most Districts, allow us 1 hour workout time every day. Go back to the 8 hrs of patrol and 1 hour workout time. L.A. does it and they are in much better shape. If you are in good enuff shape to be out manning a beat car you shopuld be able to have a M-4 period.
If I am good enuff to man a beat car most times 99. I should be good enuff to have a M4.
For all of those who are stating about shotguns "the racking noise is a great deterrent" this is an entirely wrong attitude. The shotgun, like any firearm, is intended to be used as a tool of deadly force. It is not intended to be used as it is in the movies or television. Movies and TV are fiction, we deal with the most brutal of reality everytime we go to work. You should be cambering a round as soon as you arm yourself with it, not waiting until you see a possible deadly force threat so you can maybe intimidate them with a "cool noise". Whether at home or on tour of duty you arm yourself, chamber a round, and then see what the actions of the offender dictate you do. If their actions demand you use deadly force then so be it. Fuck a deterrent. If their actions force you to use it then let a chest full of lead be the deterrent. Dont count on hollywood, cowboy, tough guy bullshit. If you are waiting to chamber a round, hoping for a possible psychological effect you arent in the fight. Even if the bad guy's tiny black hearts arent in the game we must assume they are. Dont give them even a half second advantage that you might need. We know they wont hesitate, why should you?
Let me ask you this. Do you go on your tour not having a round in your pistol chambered, hoping to intimidate the possible deadly force threat at a man with a gun call with the cool "ca chick" noise made by chambering a round in your pistol?
Plese, get your heads in the game and stay safe.
The shot gun would be a great tool to have however the city should let us carry shot guns that are have a 13inch barrel it is easier to handle it tight situations and also you could carry it more safely inside the vehicle.
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You could thank clyde barrow for the SBS law because of his "whippet" shotgun and chopped down BAR. It's in the books to tack on extra charges when some one commits a crime with them. Most law abiding citizen's in many states could own Suppressors/MG's/SBS it's just a lot of paperwork through the ATF and a $200 tax stamp. The Serbu 4rd "super shorty" would be an awesome door breeching gun/back up and can be holstered too.
Gun sense? It's more like gun NON-sense. Wasn't the POWER TEST requirement just some political tool to force the officers into some kind of shape for the Olympics that never came to Chicago. Wasn't the POWER TEST requirement the END-all. Many officers went for a days training at the range and were proficient at handling the shotgun. It was usually the officers that did qualify for these shotguns were on teams that did search warrants and took them out only for the time of the search warrant. We know from experience that these officers that took the course did so without a POWER TEST. Then the M4 came along and the idea of a POWER TEST came along with it. The guys that took the shotgun course knew it was all bullshit that you had to take the POWER TEST to handle a M4. Some of the shotgun qualified guys were burly guys hunting animals on their own time using various guns to hunt. I know, because I hunted with them and believe me, maybe these guys couldn't run the mile and a half in the designated time at their age now, but they did do it at a time of the police hiring phase years ago. And these guys were crack shots. And during that time they accumulated years of experience that given the bullshit political climate, is just wasted as much as taking a POWER TEST. Now, I don't care if they give me a free M4 or a free shotgun without even having to take a qualifying test. They can shove it where the sun don't shine. I just depend on my .45, like I used to for the past twenty years. I don't need any other bullshit. And one last thing, you would think that the FOP would have filed some kind of grievance based on discrimination. Talk about a union that sucks, FOP sucks.
See your point loud and clear. It is blatant discrimination. The FOP is an ostrich hiding its head in the sand on controversial issues. Just use the .45 and be safe. If heavier gun power is used by offender(s) seek cover and try to pick and choose good placement shots. If anything bad happens to you, God forbid, either you or your family sue. It always takes a bad event and a lawsuit to wake morons up.
LAPD does not have a rule that if you put on 10lbs you are put on unpaid leave...in patrol at LAPD all patrol officers can check out a remington 870 and a bean bag shotgun....you can also go the beneli school and m4 school...the department is pushing hard to get as many patrol cops m4 qualified as possible
When I was attending Northbrook Day's last year and was speaking with an officer he was a one man unit. I glanced over into his cruiser and sure as shit in his middle rack not only was there a shotgun but and Mp5. I felt good knowing they supplied there troops with good artillery.
Not a Cop
From a ballistics stand point the M4 .223/556 is nothing more then a souped up .22LR and an AK-47 is a lever action 30/30 with a mag, don't get me wrong I would not want to get hit with either but for the price paid I would have kept the money in Illinois and went with Rock River Arms Lar-8 in .308 which accepts surplus FAL mags, something you know when it is needed is going to leave a smack.
shotgun is a step backwards. no range. harder to shoot. less capacity etc. shotguns are good for birds. the m4 and .556 round was developed to kill people. and it does not overpenetrate. I dont care for the power test but its there; so either get in shape or dont carry the rifle. quit whinning.
Actually the round the department uses, the .223 Remington, was created to kill varmits, not people. Shotguns have been proven human killers for hundreds of years.
Give me my backup whos proficient at shooting and has a pair over anyone who can hold a weapon but might not be prepared mentally do help me or anyone else.... but WF do I know, Im just old school
Anonymous said...
The shot gun would be a great tool to have however the city should let us carry shot guns that are have a 13inch barrel it is easier to handle it tight situations and also you could carry it more safely inside the vehicle.
4/29/2010 02:59:00 AM
Keep dreaming little man. No one cares. Now go and write parkers and movers.
Disabuse yourselves of the idea that the power test has anything to to with ability to use/carry/retain the M4. That is absolutely not why we have the power test. The power test is there to limit the numer of people who can take the class at any time. This department does not have the facilities or the training manpower to provide training for all the officers who would sign up for the M4 class. By requiring that everyone take and pass the power test, the department is able to limit the number of people. The power test is only offered every so often, and sign up for that is limited. That's two gates - when the power test is offered and how many people can sign up to take it. Then, the fact that some people fail the power test is a third gate into the program. If we had an outdoor rifle range and twice the training manpower, you'd see twice as many people trained and the possible elimination of the power test requirement.
Regarding the M4, jfled has added way too many hoops to jump through just to own one legally. Not that is matters, there are never any classes open. He forces you, if you do buy one, to not register it.
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You get in the class. You finish the class. You buy one & pre register it. You sight it up in a seperate, short half day, class then registration is finalized with a to/from to gun registration. All on duty! From what Ive seen the instructors are more than happy to help out street coppers. When I went to the class the instructors were forgoing their own lunches to help guys get their personal rifles legit.
Its not that hard to do. Worst part is waiting to make it in the class.
Lovin' my Rock River!
carbine has a higher magazine capacity. even if you get an extended tube on a shotgun you only get 7+1 capacity out of it. long range goes to the carbine. carbine is a lot easier to shoot. shotguns are great for hunting flying birds, but for urban fire fights a carbine is the best tool available. it would be nice having the option if you are more comfortable using a shotgun.
stay safe
Did any CPD ever shoot anybody in the line of duty with a shotgun? Ever?
just wondering.
why can't P.O's have shot guns? My brother is an officer in LA and they give them those army guns and shot guns. The only reason I know this is I asked. I am not the police, but do live here and feel we are only safe when the police get to do their job. The police on my beat are the best. I tell them all the time what can I do for you.
I won't say the shotgun is better than the M4, but a shotgun is still a heavy weapon that comes in handy. Ther are many things you can do with a shotgun that can't be accomplished with the M4. Whoever made the comment the shotgun is lighter is wrong. It takes more stamina to handle a shotgun. The recoil alone is at least 3-4 time harsher. But one thing about the shotgun is it is a definate take down weapon at under 25 yards. Shotguns and M4's are like apples and oranges. It is a preference. They both have their pro's and con's. It is a personal preference. As far as my preference, I would rather have a Reminton 870 with an adjustable stock, 18 inch barrel and magazine extension any day of the week. The shotgun can be accurately fired from the hip or shoulder if you are properly trained. What you hit goes down in one shot at close range. Figuring most firefights occur within 15 yards, it is a weapon that can't be beat. Even a perfect shot is still a hit. for those who say it is not accurate, I'll go out to the range with you. I'll take the shotgun and fire 3 rounds. You can fire 10 rounds with the M4. Then we can compare targets. And just one rack of the shotgun gets everybodies attention immediately.
For those who say a shotgun won't penetrate body armour. Just remember the power of the shotgun shell hitting body armour will knock anyone down and usually knock them unconcious. May not kill them, but it will stop the threat. Plus if you aim low it will basically take their legs out. Plus for those who never had intensive shotgun training, you can skipa shotgun blast around a corner off brick or concrete and hit you target. I know I taught shotgun training years ago. Very versatile weapon. Phsically and mentally.
I hope Daley is suing the Louiville Slugger company for the recent attacks in Bucktown!
Geez this guy is behind the power curve!
Anonymous said...
Did any CPD ever shoot anybody in the line of duty with a shotgun? Ever?
just wondering.
4/29/2010 08:58:00 PM
Yes. About 1975 around 57th and Prairie. CPD shooter now a federal inmate on an unrelated matter.
Why does it have to be one or the other? Either is far superior to a pistol, both in power, and more importantly, ability to hit the target. OK, so you get shoot throughs with a shotgun or a M4, it's better than all the flat out MISSES with the pistols.
Anonymous said...
Did any CPD ever shoot anybody in the line of duty with a shotgun? Ever?
just wondering.
4/29/2010 08:58:00 PM
Hell yes, more than one also. Shotgun used in that shootout on Augusta a few years ago.
4/29/2010 09:59:00 AM
the USMC has and still use the mossberg 590,if its good for them it must not be out of date[good for home defense at least]
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Yes, they use it to breach doors.
4/29/2010 11:39:00 AM
Anyone know what percentage of police shootings occur at which distances and with how many offenders ?
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Most police firearm engagements are within 7 yards and with a single assailant. The short range most likely will not change due to the nature of the job. Alarmingly the percentage of firearm engagements with two or more assailants has been growing steadily and continues to do so.
4/29/2010 01:32:00 PM
1. Actually the round the department uses, the .223 Remington, was created to kill varmits, not people.
2. Shotguns have been proven human killers for hundreds of years.
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1. No Dept round is 556 FMJ. That is clearly written in the GO. You can look it up on the CLEAR system.
2. Yes, and a rock to the head, swung with enough force, has been a proven killer for as long as Homo Sapiens have walked upright. That doesnt mean its an appropriate weapon.
4/29/2010 11:00:00 PM
Plus for those who never had intensive shotgun training, you can skipa shotgun blast around a corner off brick or concrete and hit you target.
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For obvious reasons this is a less than a wise course of action.
4/29/2010 10:53:00 PM
for those who say it is not accurate, I'll go out to the range with you. I'll take the shotgun and fire 3 rounds. You can fire 10 rounds with the M4. Then we can compare targets.
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Really? you can honestly say that 3 12 gauge will end a threat at longer than 15 yards better than 10 rounds of 556? OK.
4/29/2010 08:12:00 AM
There are auto-loading shotguns you know……
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Yes, and the dept does not use them.
4/29/2010 11:54:00 AM
For all of those who are stating about shotguns "the racking noise is a great deterrent" this is an entirely wrong attitude... Fuck a deterrent. If their actions force you to use it then let a chest full of lead be the deterrent. Dont count on hollywood, cowboy, tough guy bullshit. If you are waiting to chamber a round, hoping for a possible psychological effect you arent in the fight. Even if the bad guy's tiny black hearts arent in the game we must assume they are. Dont give them even a half second advantage that you might need. We know they wont hesitate, why should you?
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This is good common sense.
4/29/2010 11:45:00 AM
If I am good enuff to man a beat car most times 99. I should be good enuff to have a M4.
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This doesnt say it all but it sure says a lot.
4/29/2010 08:12:00 AM
There are auto-loading shotguns you know……
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Yes, and the dept does not use them.
___________________________________
We do have auto loading shotguns. The Benelli is an auto loader. It is not a pump. But a pump is no slower than any shotgun to cycle a round if you are trained well with them.
I have seen comments regarding the M4 being .556 caliber. The department M4's are .223 caliber. May hit at long range, but not a great take down round. If they were larger caliber they would be good. but in 223, I'll stick by a 12 gauge shotgun. May not have the long range but within it's range, it will put down anybody with one round.
Shotgun is not as accurate a an M-4. This makes the M-4 better for an urban environment.
4/29/2010 12:29:00 AM
The shotgun is a point and shoot weapon. A shotgun is a shorter range weapon and does not pentrate buildings which could cause an innocent person being injured or killed. The only drawback with the 12 gauge is you better be strong enough to take the recoil. That and the fact the 12 guage is much heavier than the M4. The weight and the recoil alone make the shotgun a harder weapon to master.
This is the answer my friends.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aANTsFVr4pA
"I have seen comments regarding the M4 being .556 caliber. The department M4's are .223 caliber."
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Really? So despite the fact that the general order says dept ammo is 556 55gr FMJ, despite the fact that 556 nato is stamped on the barrel of every dept carbine, despite the fact that the dept ammo issued to you upon zeroing personal rifles says 556 55gr FMJ the dept IS using 223.
Huh...imagine that.
The only problem is, a scatter gun or and M4 can't replace guts.
Snubbies with attitudes kids. Learn it, live it, love it!
When are you hard chargers going to learn, "There is always some one, bigger and badder than you"
I still work, but I ALWAYS handcuff everyone.
I accept/expect it out of the young guys,but I have seen 10 + coppers, good coppers, still not doing this
Why?
If Joe has a Roscoe, there is not a snowman's chance in hell he is going to willingly let you frisk him.
Why fight if you don't have to?
The reason we win kiddies, is not just because we are tuff. Jedi mind F the $hithead.
Pick your battles. Sometimes you just have to fight, so be it. But to give the savage an opportunity, shame on you.
I'm coming to help either way, but I hope I don't have to put my life on the line for you're stupidity.
Never trust anyone, especially a $hithead.
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