Another Opinion on Pensions
Opinions are like lawyers - or is it something else? Here's another lawyer talking about pension guarantees:
- The people who wrote the 1970 Illinois Constitution knew they were guaranteeing public employees that their pensions would not be reduced once they started working, according to a new legal analysis by the Senate Democrats’ top lawyer.
The 76-page report – complete with 630 footnotes – attempts to refute arguments by the Civic Committee of the Commercial Club of Chicago that the legislature has the power to change future benefits for current employees.
Over the last eight months, Eric Madiar, chief legislative counsel to Senate President John Cullerton, D-Chicago, reviewed the debates at the constitutional convention, related court cases and the papers of Henry Green, one of the sponsors of the constitution’s pension clause, which are at the University of Illinois.
“In sum, welching is not a legal option available to the state,” Madiar concluded.However, the state could negotiate a reduction in future pension benefits for current employees, he added.
Those are going to be some contentious negotiations - should they ever take place.
Labels: pension
posted by SCC at 12:05 AM
74 Comments:
Off topic: Where's the best place for duty gear? I'm getting a new duty weapon and am going to need a holster, mag pouches, off duty holster, etc. Been to Cabelas, got ammo. Couldn't find much else of use to me there... So where to next? Rays? Shore? Suggestions appreciated. Thanks.
The "Illinois Senate Democrats' Majority Report , Friday, March 4, 2011" has downloadable research concerning pensions. I haven't had time to print or read them all but the research is there. Good or bad research, it's out there for anyone with time to read.
Unions have nothing to do with the budget shortfall most if not all latest union contracts have given back not only raises but benefits and have taken non-paid furlough time. Just ask a private industry worker to give something back or take time off WITHOUT PAY and they tell you go stick it! When a politican is more concerned with their image and not whats needed. Supporting the freeloader and entitlements is at such a huge drain on the budget but the politican is afraid to do what is right and needed, start dropping some of these freeloaders that have been collecting a free check for years, but they won't they will blame everyone but them selfs for the mis-management and it's time to start cutting even start questioning the free entilements for everyone including the ILLEGIALS!
Opinions please... said...
Off topic: Where's the best place for duty gear? I'm getting a new duty weapon and am going to need a holster, mag pouches, off duty holster, etc. Been to Cabelas, got ammo. Couldn't find much else of use to me there... So where to next? Rays? Shore? Suggestions appreciated. Thanks
************************
On line, Opticsplanet.com They're in Northbrook, have a huge inventory, good prices and fast delivery. If you want a brick and mortar store, you can try Shore or Ray O'Herron. If you want custom made leather gear you can try El Paso Saddlery or Kirkpatrick Leather.
To Opinions please...
If you were the police and needed "duty gear", you would already know where to go...since you are not the police....figure it out for yourself...
what's wong with k9?
Off Topic:Ray O'herran in Lombard. Grea Police Discounts and always helpfull
well hopefully they do take place because the way its going, we will not have a pension, so something has to change, we are going to have to accept a smaller percentage and pay in more, i would rather the smaller amount than nothing which is what we would get the way it is going
Off topic: Where's the best place for duty gear? 3/19/2011 12:56:00 AM
www.galls.com for gear,
Midwest Sporting Goods in Lyons for your weapon www.midwestguns.com/
From the Champaign newspapers last week....
Illinois public employees concerned about having their pension benefits cut have nothing to worry about, thanks to the 1970 Illinois Constitution and to the late Henry Green of Urbana.
That’s the opinion of Eric Madiar, the chief legal counsel to Illinois Senate President John Cullerton, who has written a persuasive analysis on why the state cannot renege on the pension promise it makes in Article XIII, Section 5 of the Constitution. That article, known as the Pension Clause, says in part that “membership in any pension or retirement system of the State ... shall be an enforceable contractual relationship, the benefits of which cannot be diminished or impaired.”
Some lawyers and legislators have suggested that the debt-ridden state could slash billions of dollars in costs by reducing pension benefits to public employees. But Madiar, using letters and other documents preserved by Green, who was an influential delegate to the 1969-70 constitutional convention, found that it clearly was the intent of the convention delegates to lock the state into providing the benefits.
Green was a farm manager and a farm operator who later went into banking, founding the old American National Bank in Champaign. He also was on the steering committee that helped found Parkland College and was its first director of development.
He admitted that he promoted the pension promise, which was based on a 1938 amendment to the New York State Constitution, because of concerns raised by university employees who had lost “faith in the ability of state and local governments to make benefits payments.”
They'll just grant you your S.S.I. benefits like the rest of the people out there. Since the pension fund will be broke in a few years.
OT: Great grass-roots job on the benefit by the southsiders last night. Way to come together and show support for a great guy that is getting royally phucked. Took a bus down from God's country, and had a great time.
If you need suggestions on where to buy duty gear... You are not and never should be the police... Go away troll.
But what happens when there is NO money period.What then??
Rays? No!!! Ray's has guys that do a lot of lying !! Those mf's lyed to me on several occasions.
Like the politicians didn't know all this before hand? Puleeze. Before they even start a public conversation, they know how it's going to end.
---not a cop
A two tier system will happen and those of us already in the system need to work this into our favor somehow. If you do the math even if they raised our current 9% to even 13% it will always pay better than a 401K. Why should be care about someone that is not currently employed? Anyone want to further that?
i should hope that people vote against the cullerton that is running for alderman. family has been in power since the 1800's
I had great luck with lapolicegear.com or glockstore.com
Both places have good prices, ship quickly and have great customer service, you can deal with both places over the phone if you have questions too.
Ray O'herron as a special on Glocks and they are usually very helpful. Check the police academy with the special they have advertised outside the range on the billboard.
The law means whatever Dumbocrats want it to mean.
Off topic: Where's the best place for duty gear? I'm getting a new duty weapon and am going to need a holster, mag pouches, off duty holster, etc. Been to Cabelas, got ammo. Couldn't find much else of use to me there... So where to next? Rays? Shore? Suggestions appreciated. Thanks.
3/19/2011 12:56:00 AM
Dude buy all of that stuff on line, check out LA police gear, botach, optics planet, cops quest, galls, U S cavalry, quarter master. So on and so further, just google what you are looking for and the price shop the online retailers. You will save a ton of money by shopping on line.
Sorry, O.T.
To my brothers in blue.
Form your own opinions of Charles Ramsey.
However, I would highly encourage and respectfully request that you view the below listed site.
It's well worth a few minutes of your time. It truly is an example of that term, "Earned Not Given."
THIS is what makes us all equal in that we all bleed 'blue' ... our common bond, beyond any borders.
This is why Chicago will again be well represented this May 13-15, during the National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial during 'Police Week,' in Washington D.C.
May God rest the souls of Sgt. Haymaker, Officers Wortham, Bailey, Soderberg, Flisk, our Philadelphia brother McDonald and ALL our brothers ans sisters that made the "Ultimate Sacrifice."
Please view this reminder (below) in its entirety.
http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/video?id=6423389
Thank You for your time. Stay Safe.
Ol' vet retired
Can't they just wait till the next vote to have a constitutional convention. I bet it would pass this time and they would then be able to eliminate that pesky provision. Of course, a lot of people will have retired in 17 yrs.
Go to Ray O'Herrons. Good staff, good service, and they like the police. Its an extra drive but worth it. Make a day of it in DuPage county.
Opinions please... said...
Off topic: Where's the best place for duty gear? I'm getting a new duty weapon and am going to need a holster, mag pouches, off duty holster, etc. Been to Cabelas, got ammo. Couldn't find much else of use to me there... So where to next? Rays? Shore? Suggestions appreciated. Thanks.
If you don't mind driving out to East Dundee, GAT Guns has a large selection and a range where you can try out rental guns.
For all the bluster that the politicians are talking about pensionwise, they (pensions can't be changed for those who are vested)-they have to look like they are trying and doing something-making us look like greedy MFers.
The police have and always will be the public's whipping boy, it is the way it is-nothing we can do to stop it.
Remember the "old-timer" telling me as I was looking at my career options, he was a cop he explained it out pretty well. Your not going to be rich, you can always work side jobs for those extra things in life. But you'll have great benefits and a pension...., Now some assholes think you can just wave a pen and change it after the fact.....hmmm
You might have my attention, briefly if you start at the top, like those self serving corrupt politicians. But then again, it is only for those "other people", not "us, were above that". I think you might want to think again.. Were flying into some stormy weather, you may want to return to your seats and buckle up.
Get rid of the pension and let me collect social security and invest my own money. Give me back everything that I've paid into it and I'll double it in a year. How about that? Would the city go for that idea? Or do they need my money that bad?
Shore Galleries is the best and you won't have to drive across the State with almost 4 dollar a gallon gas to get there.
I wouldn't give Ray's the time of day.
Anonymous Opinions please... said...
Off topic: Where's the best place for duty gear? I'm getting a new duty weapon and am going to need a holster, mag pouches, off duty holster, etc. Been to Cabelas, got ammo. Couldn't find much else of use to me there... So where to next? Rays? Shore? Suggestions appreciated. Thanks.
3/19/2011 12:56:00 AM
I would advise you to search at our fop website for vendors and then as they say "let your fingers do the walking" and call them up and ask for their prices. Also, search online for companies that sell duty related equipment (visit policeone.com, officer.com and other police related webites to find such vendors).
Just by doing the above, I was able to save a lot of money.
401k boys and girl if your not retired now this will pass this year bet on it the city state country are broke retire now or look out thanks rich daley family
Transcript from negotiations on pension givebacks.
State: "What are you going to give back to help in this crisis?"
Our Answer: "Nothing. Fuck You!!!"
Opinions please... said...
Off topic: Where's the best place for duty gear?
Rays or online.
Shore gallery
When r the politicians gonna revamp their pensions?
Off topic: Where's the best place for duty gear? I'm getting a new duty weapon and am going to need a holster, mag pouches, off duty holster, etc. Been to Cabelas, got ammo. Couldn't find much else of use to me there... So where to next? Rays? Shore? Suggestions appreciated. Thanks.
3/19/2011 12:56:00 AM
On line ie copsplus.com or just google it
Interesting-Devine is a longtime friend of the Daley family. Now in private law practice, Devine represents Vanecko’s older brother, Robert Vanecko, in a lawsuit stemming from $68 million that five city pension funds hired his firm to manage.
To Opinions please...
If you were the police and needed "duty gear", you would already know where to go...since you are not the police....figure it out for yourself...
3/19/2011 07:42:00 AM
Why always negativity and skepticism? Maybe he really is the police and looking for a good deal. I'm the police with over 20 years, since I havent bought any gear in quite some time I wouldn't know where to go or who to recommend. Stop being so paranoid and maybe lend some help.
3/19/2011 07:42:00 AM
Dear short bus,
I was merely asking for ideas, jag. Your smart ass opinion is not requested. If you read the op, you would see I knew of our regular stores. Please don't breed.
Dude buy all of that stuff on line, check out LA police gear, botach, optics planet, cops quest, galls, U S cavalry, quarter master. So on and so further, just google what you are looking for and the price shop the online retailers. You will save a ton of money by shopping on line.
3/19/2011 10:26:00 AM
Yeah, and the pussies running this sick state are already charging us taxes for internet purchases. They just can't keep their hands out of our pockets. All the non-workers need their handouts, so you will have to pay for those purchases online and fork it over the Quinn and Madigan to hand out to the worthless.
But you should continue to stay home and not vote or vote for the Democrats. Because they have really done a great job running this state.
Two-tier starting with new hires? So 30 years from now it will save money? You think that's going to do it?
They are going to screw with everyone not retired now. Work longer/pay more.
A two tier system will happen and those of us already in the system need to work this into our favor somehow. If you do the math even if they raised our current 9% to even 13% it will always pay better than a 401K. Why should be care about someone that is not currently employed? Anyone want to further that?
3/19/2011 09:42:00 AM
Why should we care about those not yet employed? Because they will be the fucking police, that's why. You just sold out future generations of cops to politicians who stole your own future. You're OK with that? That's the fucking problem. No loyalty or ability to stick together against thieving political hacks.
Don't you know that they try to screw you a little at a time? What was fought for is now being given back by the gutless to save what they think they can salvage.
The problem is not "greedy" public servants who risk life and limb on horrible schedules that keep them from their families. The problem is politicians who fail to fund as they are REQUIRED BY LAW to do and then sell off city assets to connected family and friends. We're broke because of corrupt politicians, not city teachers, cops and fire fighters.
But you just go ahead and think about yourself. Fraternal brotherhood means nothing to the like of you. Gutless bastard. Go knock on some doors for the fucking democrats that sold out your future.
But what happens when there is NO money period.What then??
3/19/2011 08:59:00 AM
welcome to my world.
Chalkie
Off topic: Where's the best place for duty gear? I'm getting a new duty weapon and am going to need a holster, mag pouches, off duty holster, etc. Been to Cabelas, got ammo. Couldn't find much else of use to me there... So where to next? Rays? Shore? Suggestions appreciated. Thanks.
3/19/2011 12:56:00 AM
don't you have any friends?
If you pay in, and get the time, then you should get what you were promised. End of Story.
Opinions please... said...
Off topic: Where's the best place for duty gear? I'm getting a new duty weapon and am going to need a holster, mag pouches, off duty holster, etc. Been to Cabelas, got ammo. Couldn't find much else of use to me there... So where to next? Rays? Shore? Suggestions appreciated. Thanks.
With all the Real Police retiring, you should be able to pick up some used gear cheap. Check District and Area Bulletin Boards and locker rooms. Good Luck Recruit, you ARE ALL going to need it.
Revolver Cop-G.O.A.
Opinions please... said...
Off topic: Where's the best place for duty gear? I'm getting a new duty weapon and am going to need a holster, mag pouches, off duty holster, etc. Been to Cabelas, got ammo. Couldn't find much else of use to me there... So where to next? Rays? Shore? Suggestions appreciated. Thanks.
3/19/2011 12:56:00 AM
You are obviously not a cop. Get off the blog who ever you are and if you are up to something criminal, we will catch your dumb ass.
OT:
Super Moon Tonight.
Closet to the earth in 18 years.
A two tier system will happen and those of us already in the system need to work this into our favor somehow. If you do the math even if they raised our current 9% to even 13% it will always pay better than a 401K. Why should be care about someone that is not currently employed? Anyone want to further that?
Because the city will not up their end sufficiently to cover all those now employed. We need the new hires' contfibution also
Got my glock from Illinois Gun Works. Cheaper than O'Herrons and they give you breaks when buying other items with it. have done business with them since they opened. Good to the police.
09:42 Where have you been , we already have a two tier system. The bill was passed in December and took affect January 1, 2011 All new hires are on a different pension
LA police gear probably the best. Optics Planet many times shows holsters in stock and then contact you that it is backordered and will not be availabe for 1-2 weeks minimum. I ordered on 2 occasions from LA Police Gear. Both times holsters were in stock and quick delivery. good prices too. They are my only choice because being left handed they always have every left hand holster in stock and great selection.
08:02 Wake up, dont panic. Why do we have to pay in more or accept less because the city hasnt paid in their share for 25 years. Starting in 2015 they are required to pay in their share and the additional money will come from property taxes Right now they have 30 years to get the fund funded to 90% This bill was also passed in December but the city is trying to get it extended to 50 years until it is funded properly. Get some balls and stand up, the city doesnt pay so we say raise our contributions and lower our benefits Get real
“It seems to me there’s a real possibility of a massive police cover-up here,” said Taylor. “If this person were a normal citizen, particularly an African-American person and not the nephew of the mayor of Chicago, he would have been indicted on a variety of charges — if not murder, involuntary manslaughter.
“Maybe there needs to be a special prosecutor,” Taylor said. U.S. Attorney “Patrick Fitzgerald’s office should look into this.”
"i should hope that people vote against the cullerton that is running for alderman. family has been in power since the 1800's"
While Cullerton is a democRAT, at least he is a union man and supports keeping our pension in tact. The jackass running against him (Carravette) wants to reduce pension benefits for current employees and supports sending police out of the districts that the taxpayers live in. So, obviously you are a supporter of Carravette and not a friend of the police.....so stay off the POLICE blog.
Supporting the freeloader and entitlements is at such a huge drain on the budget
This is what was said on Fox.
Didn't citizens of the State of Illinois vote in the death penalty as a result of the Constitutional Convention? Now where are we at? Some bungling idiot as Governor who went against the wishes of the people of Illinois. Another sign not tjo trust this rotten bastard and his fellow democrats. All liars and rats.
ot but im suspecting that CW and henny penny must have taken the same psych test to get on the job.
Where Rahms cuff links purchased with union funds????
Thanks to all for the good suggestions. Bookmarked many sights. God bless and stay safe.
-Original poster of opinions needed
Why should we care about those not yet employed? ..........
because if they also put into the pension fund that would in turn pay the people already retired. Its worked very well over the years. That is until Daley and his family used it as their personal investment fund.
Off topic: Where's the best place for duty gear? I'm getting a new duty weapon and am going to need a holster, mag pouches, off duty holster, etc. Been to Cabelas, got ammo. Couldn't find much else of use to me there... So where to next? Rays? Shore? Suggestions appreciated. Thanks.
3/19/2011 12:56:00 AM
If you were the police, you would know this already!
Anonymous said...
Where Rahms cuff links purchased with union funds????
3/19/2011 11:04:00 PM
Shields has not yet taken office as president. he has no access to FOP funds and even when he is president expenses need other approvals and are documented.
01:30 What are you smoking or drinking. You want you money back and you will double it in a year Yea right, nothing more needs to be said, except maybe if you could double your money in a year, you wouldnt need your pension money, you would already be rich. Hell, I'm looking for a 5% return and you can yet a 100% percent return in a year Why dont you just call the Pension Fund and share your expertise and ideas with them and you will get us all out of the pension mess by doubling their investments in a year. The problem will be resoled and if you give the same advise the second year and double that money, the fund will be giving money back to us and the city
That is until Daley and his family used it as their personal investment fund.
3/20/2011 06:46:00 AM
that would be their personal divestment fund.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this whole pension deal like a Ponzi scheme?I pay for the guys that are retired and the guys that came on after me will be paying for me. And hopefully some money will be invested wisely.As an afterthought, the Gold Braid Bill should go . You should be Pensioned out at your Civil Service rank.If you can't save some $ with a salary of $150,000 or better to bad for you.Just one Blueshirt's opinion.
To the 1st poster. Forget the rip off gun shops and put "gun show" into your browser and go see 50 dealers all in one location who are competing with one another with their prices. You can't haggle at Shore. They have pretty regular ones at the lake county fairgrounds in Crown Point In.
Give me back everything that I've paid into it and I'll double it in a year.
...................................
I thought Madoff was locked up. That you, Bernie?
Where Rahms cuff links purchased with union funds????
3/19/2011 11:04:00 PM
Shields has not yet taken office as president. he has no access to FOP funds and even when he is president expenses need other approvals and are documented.
..thanks. I feel a little better now
Two good quotes from reading Capitol Facts on this issue
Franklin MacVeach, a former president of the Commercial Club, put it best long ago:
“There is no moral exemption for any man or body of men that breaks contracts. Nor is there any hope of public or private respect for a contract breaker. A contract breaker is an utter misfit as a citizen or a business man.”
and:
- MikeMacD - Friday, Mar 18, 11 @ 7:51 am:
“At the time of the [1970 Illinois Constitutional] Convention… The five State pension systems had an aggregate funding ratio of 41.8%… the five systems currently have a combined funding ratio of 39%.”
So, after 41 years the state is at about the same level of funding without any retirees missing a check. If after another 41 years the state is in the same position, how is this a major problem?
Anonymous said...
08:02 Wake up, dont panic. Why do we have to pay in more or accept less because the city hasnt paid in their share for 25 years. Starting in 2015 they are required to pay in their share and the additional money will come from property taxes Right now they have 30 years to get the fund funded to 90% This bill was also passed in December but the city is trying to get it extended to 50 years until it is funded properly. Get some balls and stand up, the city doesnt pay so we say raise our contributions and lower our benefits Get real
3/19/2011 09:14:00 PM
You should try to understand that one of the reasons the pension fund is getting short is that numerous enhancements have been added over the last 25 years or more, earlier retirement, COLS, etc. The percentage foumula has never been raised to account for that. It needs to be and the city's contribution has to stay proportionate at 2 to 1. That would be a big step toward rescue. Don't kid yourself either about the city missing contributions. They are up to date in their 2 to1 contributions through the end of 2009.
The Gov. in WI stated their pension was fully funded. Make the city pay what they owe, there is no reason ours is not fully funded.
WI dealt with the same market IL has.
401k is the answer bet on it
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